Section 4: PORNOGRAPHY AND THE JEWISH QUESTION
SHELDON RANZ: Are people in the X-rated film industry aware that you are a socialist?
NINA HARTLEY: Very few. I don’t talk that level of politics very often, because most of the people who run the industry are entrepreneurial capitalists. They all want to make money. Most of the people in the business are apolitical or tend toward conservatism, if they think about it at all.
SHELDON: Have you ever been rejected from a role because you were a socialist?
NINA: Oh no, no!
SHELDON: The [mainstream] actress Debra Winger tells the story ["Esquire" magazine, December 1986 issue] of how she almost lost the female lead in Paramount Pictures’ “Urban Cowboy”. At one point, she recalls, “Michael Eisner, who was president of Paramount, said, ‘She’s too Jewish for that role. I went to dance school with girls like that.’ What he was doing in dance school we won’t even ask.” Eisner exhibits an old syndrome among the Jewish movie moguls of Hollywood: a desire to assimilate so strong that it turns into self-hatred. The self hatred is not directed straight at themselves but sublimated into a terrible, degrading attitude toward Jewish women. Have you or any other Jewish performer encountered this attitude in the X-rated film industry? Or anti-Semitism of any kind?
NINA: I can’t speak for any other Jewish performers. I have not encountered any anti-Semitism. So many of the producers, directors, and actors are Jewish. At least among the performers, the Jewish ones like working with me, because I know them and can understand them and can get along very well with them. A lot of the producers like me because they think it is great that I’m Jewish.
SHELDON: The majority of leading male performers in American pornographic films over the years have been Jews. Not a “disproportionately high” percentage – as in “a disproportionately high percentage of American Nobel Prize winners have been Jews” – but over 50%. How do you account for this?
NINA: I have not yet met a Jewish guy who isn’t a horny rabbit. This is said in all affection and honesty. But the major point is, culturally it’s O.K. for Jews to act….and for WASPs to act, it’s very difficult. Many WASP men feel that acting is making a fool out of yourself. To get up there and have sex is seen as opening yourself up to too much potential for failure. It’s O.K. for Jews to be actors….and a lot of them are big hams, let’s face it. They also have a lack of regard for potentially looking silly. There is also a lack of guilt about sex that Jewish men have generally. Plus, they get to have sex with all these beautiful, blonde women, so wouldn’t you want to go into that business? Where else are you going to get a succession of shiksas to bed you down?
SHELDON: It’s interesting that you say “a succession of shiksas”, because there don’t seem to be as many as there used to be. In the early days of porn, you could count the number of Jewish female porn stars on one hand: Annie Sprinkle, Susan Nero, and Gloria Leonard. Then, around 1984, there was this upsurge in Jewish women starring in X-rated films – you, Amber Lynn, Karen Summer, Nina Preta, Chelsea Blake, Ali Moore, and more. Why?
NINA: For women, there is less stigma nowadays attached to doing this than there used to be. Also, by the Eighties, a large part of the adult community had moved to Southern California, which has a very large Jewish population. So, it’s chance….the chance that a Jewish person is going to wander into the offices of one of the agents is high.
SHELDON: The film that you’re most identified with is Debbie Duz Dishes. [This is the adult comedy film series that Damon Christian produced and released in the late 80s and early 90s. Nina played the lead character for the first 5 videos of the series; Keli Holliday replaced her for the remainder of the series.] It’s not only a very funny video, but you play a suburban Jewish housewife who’s not a “Jewish princess” at all, although you are referred to that way by the mother character. You enjoy sex with anyone who rings the doorbell, male or female, without any neurotic hangups. Given the history of Hollywood’s portrayal of Jewish women, showing a Jewish woman like that is radical. You see Woody Allen films. You see “The Heartbreak Kid”. Jewish women are portrayed either as ugly, or if they have a stunning figure like Leah Lapidus in “Sophie’s Choice”, then they can’t have sex, because they don’t want to, they’re not good at it, or they’re terrified of it. They’d rather be materialistic instead of sexual – file their fingernails, shop at Bloomingdale’s, take vacations in Florida, etc. Given this context and since porn films do operate in the shadow of Hollywood, who decided to make “Debbie” Jewish? Why wasn’t she left ethnically nondescript?
NINA: Well….the creator of the character is Damon Christian, a Protestant man…
SHELDON: Now that’s ironic!
NINA: He’s quite a phenomenal individual who’s been involved in the fight against censorship for a long time. He made Debbie Jewish partly to poke fun at the “Jewish American Princess” joke, and partly to have someone Jewish who is not a “JAP” for the sheer cinematic amusement to be gained. Plus, he knew that I was Jewish and could play someone of Jewish descent with very little effort…
SHELDON: Just breathe!
NINA: Right.
SHELDON: Let me bounce this idea off you: the JAP stereotype is so widespread and unchallenged that it plays a vital role, an important role, in perpetuating hostility toward Jews. Many people who do believe this of Jewish women live in the Midwest, [and] the South. These are people who have little face-to-face contact with Jews; so all they know of Jewish women is what they see in the movies I’ve already mentioned. And yet, a lot of these people enjoy watching X-rated films featuring women like yourself, Amber Lynn, Karen Summer….but they don’t know that these women who get them off are Jewish. If they did know, would it make a difference in their attitudes towards Jews? Would it make them question the “Princess” image such that the hostility gained toward the Jews as a result of this Hollywood brainwashing would decrease?
NINA: If they look at us on the screen and see that we’re hot and find out that we’re Jewish, I certainly think it would serve to break down some stereotypes which they may or may not be aware that they have. But, a lot of people don’t think of Jewish “women”. They think of Jews as having power, Jews as having money, or Jews as big bankers. Jewish women, as a subcategory, do not merit much though in the Midwest, in the heartland of the country. Jews are seen as an amorphous “thing”, which floats around and runs the international banking system.
If the people in the Midwest and the South who watch the films knew that we were Jewish, they would say, “Gee, not all Jewish women are ugly.” They don’t understand that not all Jews have dark, frizzy hair, with hairy legs and big noses. They do not realize how varied Jews can look.
Section 5: RACE AND CLASS
[Update from Anthony (3-1-05): For this section I have kept more of my annotated notes than from the other sections, because they are more explanatory in nature than personal..and the paragraph below that was an annotation from the original posting I have retained for the same reason.
The conditions of Blacks who work in the X-rated entertainment industry described in this section has improved a great deal in the past 15 years since this interview was first published. There are more African American producers and directors of X-rated videos and films; some actresses have achieved some fame (Heather Hunter, Dominique Simone, and Midori (aka Michelle Watley, sister of pop superstar Jody Watley; who actually appeared in one of Nina’s "Sex Guides" videos) are more modern examples, while past Black starlets include Ebony Ayes, Jeanne Pepper, Angel Kelly, and Ajita Wilson (who became quite famous in Italy as the chief rival to Illona "Ciccolina" Staller, later infamous for her election to the Italian Parliament). In addition, the success of hip-hop and rap has allowed an outlet for more open and progressive sexual expression that has expanded the possibilities for Black people wanting more honest information about sex. Nevertheless, many of the old racist stereotypes remain common (the myth of the "well-hung" Black stud is especially durable, especially since one of the leading male Black stars, Sean Michaels, is as well known for his 14-inch member as for his acting abilities and his ability to please his female co-stars). As it is for everything else in life, the wheels of progress grind slowly but surely....thanks to progressives like Nina (and Sheldon), we just might speed up the pace a little.]
SHELDON RANZ: What is the position of Black people in the industry?
NINA HARTLEY: There are no Blacks that I have seen behind the camera. [Today, we have people such as Ron Hightower and Mr. Marcus directing films, and distribution companies like Video Team producing non-racist videos for Blacks (and other persons of color).] Maybe someone like Jack Baker (a popular male star) has done production work; a couple here and there do editing; but there are no Blacks in administration. In front of the camera, there are more Black actresses than actors. There may be some discrimination in terms of wages – i.e., to get better wages, you must be considered a star. It’s much, much, much more difficult for a Black woman to ever get to the level of a star than it is for a white woman. [This imbalance is typical of much of the entertainment industry....mainstream and X-rated.]
There are “stars” and there are “Black stars”, rather than just “stars in general. Most of the Black stars tend to be featured in all-Black movies. There are only a few of the Black women I know that regularly show up in the mainly white features. Nothing’s hard and fast, of course; this is the basic tendency. It’s strictly racism on the part of some people in the industry and certainly on the part of the consumers as well. For the most part, the viewing public [of X-rated videos/films] is as racist as any other segment of the population. Many of them do not want to see many Blacks. One Black woman in a movie is O.K., or maybe one Black woman and one Black guy, as long as they don’t have too many scenes in the movie. If the part does not specifically call for a Black performer, no Black person is ever cast in it. One exception was a movie I did called Naughty Girls Like It Big. Lilli Marlene’s sister was played by Angel Kelly, and no effort was made to explain why Lilli is white and Angel is Black. I thought that was wonderful.
SHELDON: Do X-rated films with Black people in them perpetuate racist stereotypes?
NINA: I’d say they perpetuate racist stereotypes: the “well-hung” stud mentality or the “hot woman” mentality, or how good Blacks can “do it”, or how much better Blacks can do it better than whites. People expect “Black sex” to sizzle more than white sex.
SHELDON: Are you sure? From the films I’ve seen, porn perpetuates the image that all women are hot….not just Black women. The most well-endowed men in the films – John Holmes, Peter North, Ron Jeremy – are white.
NINA: True….but there are white men in the business who are not really well hung: Eric Edwards, Richard Pacheco, Jerry Butler. I have a feeling that if a Black man is not pretty decently well hung, he’s not going to get a job.
SHELDON: If this is true, since the industry is not unionized, I’d be inclined to think that it should be, at least to remedy that situation. Would you like to see the adult film industry unionized? Do you think that could work?
NINA: Of course I’d like to see it unionized….I’m a socialist. But, before we could do that, you have to get it legalized or decriminalized. But, it would be very difficult to unionize because it would be too easy to find scab workers. The working conditions over time have generally improved greatly, due to the efforts of those who have gone before: Gloria Leonard, Annette Haven, John Leslie, Richard Pacheco. They have argued for basic conditions on the set. Instead of baloney and white bread, we now have warm, catered lunches. A twelve-hour day is considered normal, and anything more is considered overtime. There are now makeup artists on the set to make sure everyone stays looking their prettiest.
SHELDON: You say it would be difficult to unionize this business. But that is true of a lot of industries. Only 18% of the workforce in this country is unionized.
NINA: Well, you have to get the people to think they need a union. That’s difficult, because they don’t want to make waves, they don’t want to get anyone mad with them, they don’t want to lose any work. For a lot of people, just the relief of having it decriminalized or legalized would put off the ability to unionize for quite a while, since they wouldn’t have to worry about being harassed, so working conditions would go up even more.
SHELDON: As a sex worker, do you have kinship with prostitutes? Do you have contact with them?
NINA: Certainly I feel kinship with other sex workers and certainly with prostitutes. I’ve had a slight connection with COYOTE ["Cast Off Your Old Tired Ethics", one of the first prostitute/sex worker rights organizations in the US], the prostitutes’ rights group. I wholeheartedly feel decrinalization is the only way to go to protect their rights. Only about 20% of all prostitutes are street prostitutes, but they account for 95% of all prostitutes arrested and harassed. I really feel very strongly for the women who have to put up with being on the streets. It’s illegal for them to work in pairs; it’s illegal for them to work out of a secure apartment; it’s illegal for them to create safe working conditions for themselves. Only with decriminalization can they redress their grievances and only then can they be rid of one of the major hassles in their lives….which is the police.
SHELDON: The anti-porn feminists charge that most porn film performers, like prostitutes, were abused as children, so that their current line of work is , therefore, unnatural. One of your coworkers, a performer named Kimberly Carson, seems to back them up. She states in an interview [Hustler Erotic Video, May 1987], after explaining her Southern Baptist background, that, “you also find that a lot of us have been abused by our parents. Most of us have been molested.” Is that true?
NINA: I have not found that any greater percentage of women in the business have had unwanted sexual experiences than in the general population. I don’t know where Kimberly got her information. She also makes a statement that she was raised strictly Baptist; and I find that some of the worst child abusers are those who are very highly religious. They have very rigid ideas as to what men and women are supposed to be about….which opens up the whole thing about spare the rod and spoil the child. Many people beat up their children, because the Bible tells them to beat up their children. So, while 25% of all women are abused before they reach age 18, I would guess that 60-75% of fundamentalist Christian children are abused before they reach age 18.
To those feminists who say that pornography and prostitution are so degrading to women, I say: put your money where your mouth is and start counseling and job-training programs so that women who want to leave the sex industry can do so with a hope of earning and living.
Conclusion: WHERE NO PORN STAR HAS GONE BEFORE
SHELDON RANZ: You’ve been a guest on the Phil Donahue and Oprah Winfrey shows, a guest speaker at a Mensa [as in the Mensa Society for the excessively high I.Q. elite], and you spoke at a workshop at the 1986 N.O.W. [National Organization for Women] convention in Denver. There was a workshop planned on pornography at the New Jewish Agenda convention in Los Angeles, with you as a key participant. It was cancelled, vetoed by Agenda’s Feminist Task Force. New Jewish Agenda is an organization considerably to the left of Phil Donahue, Mensa, and N.O.W.; and the members of that task force knew that you are a Jew, a feminist, a socialist….all the right credentials, some would say, to speak at that conference. How do you figure it?
NINA HARTLEY: I can only attribute it to Puritanism, submission to the anti-porn hysteria going through the country; and just fear of the topic: a fear of sexuality, a fear of really reaching new heights of sexual theory and practice. You know….a lot of people tell me to my face that I can’t be a feminist because I make adult movies. Feminism in this country has been synonymous with Puritanism….a most unfortunate turn of events. So, I was quite upset at not being able to talk at the conference and get my ideas out. It was censorship by default.
SHELDON: Some porn stars have recently told the mainstream press, such as VARIETY, that they are quitting porn or going behind the camera due to fear of AIDS. [In 1989, the HIV/AIDS pandemic was at its peak; and some actors in the adult business had been stricken or had been rumored to have contracted the virus. With the emphasis on "safer sex" techniques and the prolific testing of adult performers, the AIDS threat has receded tremendously....but still remains a haunting reminder of the many risks of unprotected sex and explicit sex entertainment.] But you’re staying in the business, working in some cases with men who have also appeared in gay male porn films? Don’t you worry?
NINA: In the beginning, I did. But then, my medical reasoning got the better of me. I knew that the major problem was the mixing of blood and semen. But, one of the saving graces of adult movies is that all semen is deposited externally. [So those "money shots" weren’t just for male satisfaction, they were STD prevention as well!!] I used to dislike that, but I’m glad that happens. I knew several people who even stopped French-kissing, but I never did stop that. I felt strongly that there was not enough concentration of virus in the saliva to effect harm….plus, there are acids and enzymes in the mouth and stomach that could kill a delicate virus.
I just talked to a woman who works here in the East Bay [the Oakland/Berkeley region of the San Francisco Bay metropolitan area] for an AIDS awareness project, and she supported my view. She gets all the latest information from the CDC (Center for Disease Control, in Atlanta) and she says you cannot get it from kissing. You also cannot get it by giving or receiving oral sex. She says what is now unsafe is unprotected sex during a woman’s menstruation cycle (which stands to reason), and the deposition of semen in the body cavities (the vagina and the anus). Once I heard about the spermicide Nonoxynol-9, I started using it to take care of any pre-ejaculate fluid that may get inside me during my scenes.
SHELDON: Do you have any desire to direct porn films?
NINA: I would love to direct one day. I’ve been constantly directing scenes in my mind ever since I first started thinking about being in porno. That takes a business organization behind me, and I still have to investigate and explore how one goes about doing all that. Maybe someone like Candida Royalle [the head of Femme Productions, who produces and distributes hardcore erotic videos catered particularly to women] will invite me to direct an episode of her “Star Director Series” that she recently produced and I recently starred in.
SHELDON: If you had your druthers, what would the adult film industry look like in terms of the product?
NINA: There would be less of it and better quality. In 1986, there were 100 new adult video titles introduced a month; 98% of which were dreck. The scripts are given little or no thought. You have little or no time to rehearse and only two days to shoot. I’ve been in my share of “one-day wonders”. There are too many films being made by people who don’t care about the quality and want to make a quick buck.
SHELDON: What do you see as your future in this business, five to ten years down the line? You are a Registered Nurse; will that skill ever be put to use?
NINA: Oh, I certainly expect it to be put to use, if not here then somewhere where it can be appreciated, like Nicaragua. I know that my nursing skills and training put me at a certain level of high demand in many parts of the world; so I know that no matter what happens here, I can go somewhere else and be appreciated and be useful. In, say, ten or fifteen years, I’d like to see my work in the adult film industry fan out, become a little broader. I’d make the occasional film as good roles come my way have an advice column on a regular basis in a magazine. I’d like to write a book one day. I would like to be a general counselor for young women just getting into the business, to help them understand if they really want to do this or would they rather be doing something else.
SHELDON: Have you ever thought about having children?
NINA: Oh, sure. Ever since I was little, I always thought I definitely wanted to have at least one child. That’s not in the cards anytime soon, because I’m not ready for it and I don’t want to take the time out for it right now. A child is a very large responsibility, so that will have to wait for a more opportune time.
Side note/Update by Anthony: In 2001, in an interview by then Canadian feminist [now porn publicist] Carly Milne for the Soap Box Girls website, Nina revealed that she had had cysts removed from her uterus a year before then, resulting in possible permanent infertility. She has adjusted fully to the possibility of never being able to bear children. (The full interview is posted in the Internet at: http://www.soapboxgirls.com/jul01/interviews/nina.html . ).
SHELDON: As a socialist porn star, have you ever thought about making progressive X-rated films….ones that would imbue certain left-wing ideas with sex appeal?
NINA: I’d love to. The most romantic story of all is Che and Tanya. I often think, “Golly! I’d like to make a movie about them.”
SHELDON: Tanya was Jewish, by the way.
NINA: I didn’t know that. Well, that makes sense!
SHELDON: The Left in this country has yet to put forth a coherent position on the pornography issue. What is your message to those on the Left who feel, at the very least, uneasy about pornography?
NINA: Keep an open mind. If you want different kinds of erotica, you are going to have to make your voice heard, or go out and make it yourself. Erotica is a useful and beautiful thing. There needs to be more of it….and more kinds of it. Go out and explore tapes on your own; don’t be afraid to use your VCR’s [or DVD’s] fast forward button. There’s something out there for everybody.
When the Revolution comes…we’ll all cum!!!
Emily on 
Anthony Kennerson on 
Jenny on 
